right now on msnbc sunday, new pieces of wreckage pulled from the hudson river today following that deadlymy air collision. we are live with the latest. more heated town hall meetings this weekend as the debate over health care reform boils over again. cash for clunkers. the program running into an unexpected problem but could it be a good problem to have? plus a storm sends a high-rise hotel tumbling. some storm, right? we'll get you details on that. good morning. i'm alex witt. welcome to msnbc sunday. a new poll is out there showing a turnaround for

president obama. we'll get to that. but first, the latest details on the mid-air crash over new york city. we know right now just over an hour ago a fourth body was pulled from the waters of hudson river. we also watched live earlier this morning as police divers pulled more wreckage from the water. all told, nine people are presumed dead, including five italian tourists who were on-board that sightseeing helicopter. two men and a child were recovered all believed to have been on the plane. this is the crash site moments after it happened. this is amateur video. the center of the stage shows what appears to be debris floating in the water. this morning investigators from the national transportation safety board are back on the scene. the chair woman says investigators located the helicopter but they have not yet found the plane. she said another helicopter pilot witnessed the collision. >> we saw a small single engine aircraft approaching behind the

helicopter. he radioed the accident helicopter and told him one lima hotel. you have a fixed wing behind you. there was no response from the pilot. he stated that he saw the right wing of the airplane contact the helicopter. he saw helicopter parts and the right wing fall, and both aircraft descended into the hudson river. >> we are also hearing from eyewitnesss. >> i seen a plane and helicopter, looked like they collided. had he hit the water, the propeller was spinning around. >> instead of the helicopter going straight it appeared to be going this way. >> i just saw the puff of smoke and the blade fly off. >> this collision happened on a clear sunny summer day in new york city. nbc's jeff rossen is live in hoboken, new jersey along the hudson river with the latest. good morning, jeff. can you bring us up to date? >> reporter: alex, as you mentioned, a fourth body

recovered about an hour ago this morning, that means five victims are still under the hudson river. the problem for police divers is the hudson river is 30 feet deep in this area. it is closer to the new jersey side. the debris is. it is a strong current and very choppy so police divers have to be very careful. some of the victims we're told are trapped inside the helicopter and the airplane. we have to be very careful about getting in there. this is now a recovery operation, not a rescue operation. divers aren't going to risk their own lives to do that. they're being very careful here. divers got back in the water today. they're also trying to find the exact location of the airplane. they've identified under water where the helicopter is. sounds bizarre because it is an airplane, but everything underunder water is moving down river. they have to keep following that debris along and try to hold it in place. ntsb knows at this point that if the plane that hit the

helicopter according to authorities but they still don't know why. still pictures and amateur videotape we've been showing here, ntsb chair woman told me this morning will be incredibly helpful to them because it is going to give them an idea of how the plane and helicopter came apart. when you see the debris on top of the water. it is important to mention there are cameras up and down the hudson. they'll go through surveillance tapes to see if it was caught on tape to try to piece this together. >> how much do these photos that we're looking at right now help in the investigation? these are just amateur photos. >> they help greatly. they may be amateur photos but they -- doesn't matter if they're professional or amateur, frankly, they caught the moment of impact. you see one of the wings on the aircraft sheered off. that will be incredibly helpful because it tells them exactly what side of the plane was hit, that could tell them from there, they can back up the back story and figure out which angle each aircraft was coming from. it is incredibly helpful.

the ntsb says they're grateful to have those pictures. >> jeff rossen, catch up with you next hour. joining us here in studio, the owner of key air helicopters. he did helicopter work for almost two years. good morning. you've flown these exact same tours over new york city. are you surprised by what happened? >> yes. it is surprising. most pilots running up and down the river are professional, they know their job, know to look out for traffic. >> you're talking about the chopper pilots. you give tours, you know the rules of the air, the waterway. >> there is a certain camaraderie. everybody nose each other, we point out traffic to each other. >> to that end you say everyone knows each other. while we aren't putting the name out there of the deceased chopper pilot, you knew him, flew with him. >> that's correct. >> responsible guy? >> absolutely. absolutely. he'd be the first person to point out traffic to fellow pilots whether they be helicopter or fixed wing. he was always aware of what was

going on. >> how do you account for this accident as described and believed to be confirmed by the ntsb? there was a fixed wing pilot coming with a single engine plane from behind. put yourself in that pilot -- chopper seat right there. what happened? can you not see behind you? do you not have any sort of radar? any sense that anyone's coming up behind you like that? >> well, there's a common traffic frequency that we all talk to each other on. we announce our positions. there are certain checkpoints up and down the river. a lot of times the fixed wing traffic, they're not real familiar with the checkpoints. it's a helicopter en route chart is what we use to navigate up and down the corridor. >> is there a right of way? fixed wing or helicopter, who's going to have the right of way? >> the f p.a. a says the more -- the less maneuverable aircraft. but in this situation it's

airspace. we announce our position. the problem is i feel that the fixed wing traffic, they don't know the frequencies. they don't know the checkpoint, the reporting points. >> kind of like the helicopters -- i'm paraphrasing. correct me, but do helicopters kind of rule the road there or that space because you're out there consistently doing those tours. that is a daily piece of traffic. >> we do it 100 times a day. everybody knows what the other person, where they're coming from, where they're going and they're announcing it. >> there are going to be a lot of people who hear this and say, you know what? you're flying underneath 1,100 feet as this situation encountered. that means you're kind of on your own. maybe the faa needs to start regulating the flying and monitoring, putting them on their radars just like they do airplanes in the area. what do you think to people who would say that? >> i would recommend that the fixed wing traffic or airplane traffic be above the helicopter

corridor or 1,100 foot level. >> planes not go below there. >> that's correct. they'd be talking to air traffic control if they're above that elevation in the river. >> interesting recommendation. >> it would alleviate a lot of the problems. >> owner of key helicopters, clem, thank you. a woman and her son. they're counting their blessings today because they had tickets for the same helicopter tour and they just missed the flight. >> thanks to god, i think. because it's important. because we have a new chance in this life. >> it turns out the boy was too scared to go on that flight. by the time his mother had convinced him to go, they were late getting to the heliport. in a few minutes we'll get more insight into how this collision could have happened from an aviation expert. this breaking news from japan. officials say a strong earthquake has rattled the

capital. japanese meteorological agency called that quake a preliminary magnitude of 6.9. the u.s. geological survey calls it 7.1 and says it was centered southwest of tokyo. japanese officials say there is no danger of tsunami. also from asia, these traumatic pictures of a typhoon battering china. images of the hotel building collapsing. officials say they believe that hotel was evacuated before it collapsed. the typhoon moved from taiwan on to the mainland where nearly 1 million people were evacuated to higher ground and at least two people killed. to politics now. tempers flaring this weekend over the battle to reform health care at town halls. tom harkin of iowa was interrupted several times saturday in des moines by people in the audience. >> this is not health reform. this is control.

control over our lives. >> senator harkin calls the outburst scare tactics that are part of a nationally coordinated effort to disrupt the meetings. the republican party says it is not behind those efforts but some conservatives groups have encouraged people to show up at the meetings. hundreds gathered in memphis, tennessee to voice their concerns to democratic representative steve cohen. the congressman planned to address social security and veterans benefits but that town hall quickly switched topics, then it turned into a raucous debate over health care reform. in new york state, congressman scott murphy got an earful from all sides. hundreds gathered at a parking lot to express their positions on health yar overhaul. new this hour, the senate minority leader weighing in at those outbursts. republican senator mitch mcconnell of kentucky says he thinks neither side should try to engage in disrupting the town halls. he's defending the rights of citizens to speak out against the president's plan. >> we ought to focus on the issue and to demonize citizens

who are energetic about this strikes me as demonstrating a kind of weakness in your position. in other words, you want to change the subject. >> nbc's mike viqueira is live at the white house for us. good sunday morning to you, mike. you heard senator mcconnell's comments there. are they reflective of what other republicans are saying? >> as this continues at these town halls, it is important to point out the democrats, yes, are saying they're a right wing fringe elements of from outside of these districts that are organizing these vitriolic protests we've seen time and time again on youtube, the internet, "nightly news" and msnbc. the fact remains there are some of these outlandish claims about what's in the bill. chief foremost among them of course is that people will have to be euthanized under this bill. that's not in the bill. it's been disputed and discredited. yet that's the sort of information that's out there. to the extent that democrats can point to that and say this is the source of this craziness,

these are the sorts of rumors that are being spread around then they can have a claim that it's an organization of fringe elements paand a mob. if you look at these videos, there is a lot of vitriol, heartfelt genuine reaction, genuine anxiety people are feeling about what they're hearing about health care. this is obviously something vital to a lot of people's very existence. their lives are structured around their relationship with their doctor, how they get health insurance, whether they get health insurance. so there is a great deal of anxiety and it is obviously manifest in these town halls that we're seeing. one other thing i would note, is that you start to see yesterday an over the last couple of days many of the protestors are starting to realize that this doesn't look all that great when they start shouting people down and not giving people an opportunity to respond which is ostensibly the reason for these town halls to begin with.

they are sort of shush each other when things get carried away. that trend hasn't spread across the country as we've seen yesterday. >> thank you, mike. eunice kennedy shriver remains in critical condition this morning at a massachusetts hospital. the 88-year-old has suffered a series of strokes in recent years. her children and family have traveled to cape cod to be with her. california governor arnold schwarzenegger was seen leaving the hospital this weekend, along with his wife maria, the only daughter of u nice shriver. loved ones are bidding a final farewell this weekend to 2 of the 3 women killed in monday's gym shooting in pennsylvania. on saturday mourners gathered at church services in scott township to remember 49-year-old elizabeth gannon an 46-year-old heidi overmier. a funeral for 37-year-old jody billingsley will take place on wednesday. all three were killed when gunman george sodini opened fire during a latin dance class. sodini shot and killed himself.

authorities are assessing all the damage from a reported tornado touchdown near minneapolis. the storm produced heavy rain and hail. lightning strikes in the storm are blamed for two fires. no injuries have been reported but several cars and buildings were damaged. power's been restored for thousands of customers. there are tropical storm warnings out for hawaii. the national weather service reports hurricane felicia will likely weaken to just a tropical storm as it approaches the big island of hawaii. authorities still closing down beaches there and suggest residents prepare for heavy rains and the possibility of flash flooding. still ahead, a fire truck crashing into a home. you'll hear why investigators think this mess could have been avoided. plus new trouble on the road for the crash for clunkers program. that story coming up here on msnbc sunday. em smooth and strog are actually susceptible to irreversible damage. your teeth are no different. everyday acids can cause irreversible loss of enamel. new crest pro-health enamel shield

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the town halls aren't getting any more civil for democrats pushing president obama's health care reform plan. in des moines, iowa, senator tom harkin was interrupted several times yesterday by people in the crowd and some in the audience even began shouting at each other. >> we ain't going do anything. >> why don't you go home? >> why don't you? >> how dare you! how dare you! >> joining me now live on the phone from nashville, republican kong man marsha blackburn. good morning to you. kathie lee good morning, alex. >> i'm good you're here. i'd love your assessment of all this anger at the town hall meetings across this country. how much of it do you think is legitimate? how much do you think of it is manufactured by special interest groups looking to kill the bill? >> you know, i have done several civic club meetings and then i did three public town halls last

week. we did them through facebook. i will have to tell you, they were very organic. the groups, had you a wide range of individuals that attended. not everybody agreed with me. they were there to get information, they wanted their questions asked. they were very good. i was pleased with the turnout and with the questions and with the response to the town hall. >> i'm curious, at what point does the overjealousness of the protestors hurt the cause of those against health care reform? >> well, it is those that are against it and those that are for it. i didn't found the crowds at mine to be manufactured or any special efforts that went into those. what i did find is that they were individuals that wanted answers. i think that it is our responsibility to answer those

questions. i do think that you have those on both sides of the argument that have come from some of the footage and news reports i've seen, they've come to some of the town halls and they have become a bit heated. but speaking from my personal experience, we have not had that in our town halls. >> we should point out, republican blackburn, that are you a republican. to what extent do you find people who would be democrats there talking about things in your town hall meetings and supporting that which is out there? >> you have people that come to them, whether they're democrat or republican, they're coming with questions. and some of the democrats are very much opposed to provisions in the bill. some of the democrats are opposed to the medicare provisions. then you've also got those that are opposed to the increase in taxes, the cost, and that is, i will tell you this, the number one thing that we hear, people

will say we don't want the federal government running our health care. the second thing they talk about is, who do they think is going to pay for this? because we don't have the money to pay for it. >> do you think anecdotally speaking, were this to have been put on the docket not so close to the federal bailout of the financial system, do you think it would have had a better chance of going forward with less of a give-and-take? do you think that the money cost is what people are really thatch concerned about? >> the number one thing they're afraid of is losing control of their own health care and their physician. they do not want the federal government making those positions. they do not want a bureaucrat in the exam room between them and their doctor. that is item number one. >> in this health care bill, is there a provision that requires a bureaucrat in the exam room

between the patient and the physician? >> the way the bill is structured, it requires comparative results analysis. the way the health choices commissioner makes decisions. then you have that opening for that to happen. we also offered an amendment in committee in energy and commerce committee where i sit and where the bill was before us. and it was voted down fairly much along party lines. it was an amendment that would have prohibited a federal employee from overriding a physician's decision. and that was an amendment that was voted down. >> do you agree that there should be some type of health care reform? >> oh, absolutely. i'm one of those that has said that we need to do some work on insurance accountability reform. we need some liability reform.

we need to do some work on cost and access. but having a federal takeover, a government-run, government-provided system, which is very much like the test case for hillary clinton's health care provision, it went into place in tennessee in 1994 and it has -- it nearly bankrupted the state. we know that it's too expensive to afford. >> but if you and your fellow republicans are on board with some type of health care reform, why didn't republicans earnestly undertake this effort under the bush administration then? >> we did. >> what happened? >> what happened was, you had association health plans, small business health plans, liability reform, all of these initiatives passed out of the house in 2006 -- 2005 and 2006.

they were not able to get through the senate. but you're exactly right. and it did go through the house and it was sent over to the senate. the senate never achieved cloture and the senate never moved forward on health care reform. house did it work and primarily on a bimarts bpartisan basis. then it stalled in the senate. >> are there parts of this bill that you like? >> the way this bill is written, i've got a tough time with most of the proposals because it is not patient-centered. it is primarily government-centered. and government is -- and health choices commissioner are the ones who are the drivers in this. i prefer so ethings more patient-centered and individuals having more ability and more accountability from insurance companies. people with pre-existing

conditions should not be prohibited from getting health insurance. individuals who get sick-- i was talking with a woman this week who had some cardiology problems. she said i'm going to meet with my insurance company. i'm afraid they're going to drop me. that should not happen. this lady had been with this insurance company for over 30 years. see, that's wrong. that needs to be addressed. we have addressed many of those provisions in '06, and it is regrettable that the senate was not able to move forward on those. >> republican congresswoman marsha blackburn, calling me from nashville, tennessee, thank you so much. >> good to be with you. thank you, alex. still ahead on msnbc sunday, the latest on the search for debris and black boxes in the deadly mid-air collision over the hudson river. we'll hear from an investigator on what to expect. next. applebee's 2 for $20!

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now look at what to expect this week from the economy. the federal reserve will meet for two days to figure out how to keep the promising signs of recovery growing. chain stores have said sales are down for back to school but the government is expected to report that overall sales actually rose a little bit and then grab all your tie-dye. this weekend marks the 40th anniversary of woodstock. you can stimulate the by economy buying new dvds and cds. the real hotspot in finland this weekend. a competition took place to see who could sit in the sun the longest. some 140 men and women from 20 countries gave it a try. it was a 230 degrees in the sauna. after two minutes most of the contestants were gasping for air. the female was from russia beating the competition by three seconds. male winner sat in the sauna for 3:46. i'm hoping he's got health care insurance. right? when i was seventeen

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well, you're excused. the right insurance for your ride. w, that's progressive. call or click today. welcome back to msnbc sunday. i'm alex witt. here's the latest on that mid-air crash involving a tour helicopter and a single-engine plane over the hudson river. we're learning police divers have now pulled another body from the water. all told, nine people are presumed dead. a total of five bodies have been pulled from the river so far. two today. three yesterday. police also saying they spotted at least one other body. divers are going for that. this morning, we watched as police divers pulled more wreckage from the water as they try to piece together what happened to cause the tour helicopter and single-engine plane to collide on a bright, sunny, summer day. crash re-ig nights a long debate about weather that narrow and crowded corridor is overall

safe. at a briefing yesterday, new york city mayor michael bloomberg said completely restricting aircraft in the area would not be realistic or desirable. moments ago nbc's david gregory asked him about that again on "meet the press." >> are there some changes that should be made about the fact that there can be such unregulated travel there? >> the national transportation safety board will do a complete investigation, figure out what happened and see whether measures should be taken. that in the end will be up to the faa. they're the ones that set these rules as to where you can fly. these are very heavily used corridors. helicopters are very important to the city and used all the time. tourists seem to love it. and for commerce. they've just been an accident, total tragedy or maybe in fact if we had different procedures you could have prevented it. we've not had very many accidents in the area. the last one that was most noticeable was -- notable was the plane put down in the hudson

river where everybody survived. in this case we don't think it was survivable from virtually the instant the crash took place and it's very tragic. >> be sure to watch "meet the press" when it is rebroadcast today at 2:00 p.m. eastern right here on msnbc. joining me right now, aviation security consultant george novak formerly of the faa. good morning, george. set the scene here. how did this happen? >> well, right now it's a little early to be -- we have some basic facts. we understand the two aircraft collided. they were going in the same direction. we know the type of aircraft. other than that, it's really up to the ntsb to make the determination as exactly how it happened. >> we know the hudson river is a fairly narrow area. this corridor in which the helicopter tour, choppers, they can fly through it. also these single-engine and small private planes. the ntsb official was asked this

morning if it was possible the pilots just didn't see each other and how will they determine if that's the case. let's listen. >> we'll look at visibility. we're going to be looking at whether or not the positioning of the aircraft permitted one to see the other and the situational awareness of the pilots is very important. >> most of us can relate to driving a car. when you back your car out or sometimes change lanes you've got blind spots. you really have to look in your side rear-view mirror roars, turn your head around. is it possible that you just can't see and you have these blind spots in choppers or small planes? >> it's very possible in both aircraft that there were blind spots. keep in mind when you drive an automobile, obviously you're on a two-dimensional surface. when aircraft you're on a three-dimensional surface. you have to look both above, below, behind and in front of you. that's difficult at times. >> the timing that a helicopter

pilot from liberty tours was on the ground, radioed up to his colleague and say, hey, there's a fixed wing behind you. there was no response. is that typical, that kind of communication from the ground to those chopper pilots along the hudson river? >> well had he been able to warn him in time, it would have been very fortuitous. but given the speeds involved and aircraft's location and proximity to one another, it was probably too late by the time he radioed that warning. >> people watching this are going to say where's the f p.a. a here? if you're flying underneath 1,100 foot elevation the faa's not going to get involved. do you think the faa needs to monitor this in terms of putting these different kinds of aircraft on their radar, giving dictation to where to go, all that kind of direction? or not? >> these aircraft do have -- the faa is able to see many of these aircraft on radar. however, they are not controlled. this is called a visual flight rule or vfr corridor where the

rules are essentially "see and avoid." if you see an aircraft, you move. the most maneuverable aircraft is to move out of position. things have to be set up because there is just not the infrastructure in this country or any place for complete control of every aircraft, particularly small aircraft. the faa will of course look at this now and i think the ntsb will make additional recommendations. the faa will probably look at moving up some of the regulations and procedures that they have in the pipeline right now. >> george novak, formerly of the faa, george, thanks so much. we are going to bring you another live report on the search for the debris coming your way at the top of the hour here on msnbc sunday. a police pursuit in california ends in tragedy when the car being pursued crashed right into a truck carrying a family. at least seven people were killed when that car ran through an intersection near fresno. the crash sent both vehicles

right into a nearby lime orchard. four children were among those killed. the local newspaper reports they were thrown from the truck. in north carolina, firefighters had to call for help after their truck crashed into a home. the crew had just arrived at the scene when the truck started rolling down a hill, crashing into a house and knocking it off its foundation. the driver was cited for leaving the truck unattended and not blocking its wheels. fortunately, no one was hurt. health care reform heating up this weekend across the country. listen to this. this was the scene in missouri yet. a monthly meeting, groups of supporters and opponents showed up to express their position on president obama's health care plan. joining me now from washington, d.c., amanda carpeter for the

"washington times." adam green, co-founder of the progressive change campaign committee. and boldprogressive.org. ladies first. amanda, we've seen more of these outbursts at town hall meetings this weekend. hard to imagine any of the differences over health care, given the tenor or tone, the volume, can be addressed with all this noise. whose responsibility is it to help turn down the volume? >> i think ultimately the mem bier of congress holding this meeting has to find a way to find some kind of control over these meetings. i think it is a practical idea to require some photo i.d. to make sure kwaebts are gconstitu first seats. these idea of these prestring questions at conference calls some members are resorting to. once they're in there they want a fair shot. making sure they're talking to constituents i think is a practical measure. >> adam, there are democrats out there trying to dismiss these

angry crowds. is that fair? are there some legitimate issues that need to be brought up from the conservative perspective? >> i think there are actually two problems going in here. one, amanda's idea is being implemented. they're beginning to have photo i.d.s required. this past week there was a town hall meeting with a couple hundred people present, over half were from out of state or out of district. that's a problem. it is a problem caused by right wing groups funded by the insurance industry and corporate interests that are essentially bussing people in to disrupt one of the few opportunities that regular people have to have a dialogue with their elected representative. we need to correct that. >> among those regular people that are conservatives, they lean that way and they have, are there any legitimate beefs out there that you think ought to be addressed? >> that brings up problem number two. problem number two, a lot of people who are legitimately

there and are angry have no idea what they're angry about. a famous instance this past week, somebody stood up, pointed their fixer at their elected representative and said get your government hands off my medicare. now that's a problem. there are people like sarah palin saying barack obama wants to kill one of her children. this is not productive. it's not a mistake that when people are a straight description of president obama's public option, 76% of the people support it. misinformation is what's causing a lot of this anger. our job is to correct this misinformation. >> you're saying that sarah palin's saying that the government wants to kill one of her children? did she say that? >> did you see that? yeah. she's pretty much saying -- >> be careful. people are going to be tweeting me and i have to deal with this. did she say that specifically or did they "pretty much" say that? >> either way. the fact people are blatantly saying barack obama wants to euthanize people and sarah palin is out there talking about how barack obama is targeting her child. that is not constructive and it is the kind of thing that's resulting in these angry mobs.

even those there re lit legitimately. >> a post on conservativetownhall.com. the quote reads, the american people are not stupid. they want to be heard and the democrats are ignoring them. is this the kind of thing that you're seeing on the more conservative-leaning blogs, amanda, that conservatives feel that their voices are not being heard and that's why they're getting out there and starting what can be determined by some as sort of a raucous point of view? >> yeah, sure. they want to engage in a direct dialogue. like i said before, the idea of having these prescreened phone calls, not being able to connect with your member of congress is frustrating. it is a little bit disingenuous to act like the only conservative activists are encouraging people to come to town halls. one of the most contentious town halls happened in florida, it is my theory these are becoming political showdowns on both

sides of the aisle and these members of congress are not connecting with their constituents. one more thing. sarah palin did not say that barack obama wants to kill her son. she made a statement the on friday night talking about how she felt these reforms would inevitably hurt and impact the disabled and elderly. >> she did talk about the death panel. >> she did. >> a death panel to decide what happens with say her parents or her down syndrome baby son. >> yes, she did use the word "death panel" and also brought up her son but did not say barack obama wanted to kill her son. >> this is a discussion we're trying to keep as fair as possible. on the liberal leaning "daily kos," ring leaders don't want people to understand health care reform will help them, not hurt them. in terms of the tone of what you see on liberal leaning blogs, is

that representative of that? >> it is totally accurate. the group i'm affiliated with this past week launched an ad about the public option. it was aired on msnbc. we've gotten e-mails from right-of-center people saying barack obama wants to cut off health care for seniors. i've actually taken the time to respond to them. i troo to point out that the public option is not public-run health care and there will be marketplace competition. we found out this week there is a health care ceo who has $750 m in stock options. we do need to get that information out there and let people judge barack obama's plan based on correct information, not euthanizing and death panels. >> there is a lot of information to get out there so the public

feels informed. thank you both for weighing in. still ahead, trouble on the road for the crash for clunkers program. could it wind up hurting american consumers in the long run? that story next here on msnbc sunday. ayweather has the fastest hands boxing has ever seen. so i've come to this ring to see who's faster... on the internet. i'll be using the 3g at&t laptopconnect card. he won't. so i can browse the web faster, email business plans faster. all on the go. i'm bill kurtis and i'm faster than floyd mayweather. (announcer) switch to the nation's fastest 3g network and get the at&t laptopconnect card for free. what do you say to a spin around the color wheel? to paint with primer already mixed in? test samples instead of can commitments? what do you say we dip into our wallets less and grab a hold of the latest tools out there so we can quit all that messing around with extra steps

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we're going to the latest now on the cash for clunkers program. many car dealers around the country report they are running out of new cars to sell. auto dealers say they can't keep the small fuel-efficient models on the lot. some dealerships had to close this weekend because they are out of clunker-eligible cars. cash for clunkers is just one way the government's trying

to stimulate the economy. some analysts suggest the program will result in higher car prices for everyone else. let's bring in rick newman of "u.s. news & world report." we have a sales surge, this program certainly sparked that. how long can it last? the program that goes to labor day, then that's it? >> one thing we're learning, it can only last as long as they have cars that are eligible for the deal. once you're out of those, you -- we'll start going down the list of less appealing cars and things like that. i think what -- this obviously is succeeding in generating some economic activity. it is getting people -- it is stimulating something, for sure. for once we finally have stimulus stimulating something. but it is probably going to mark the end of what's been about a year-long buyer's market for cars. there's been a vast oversupply of cars in the market, and not enough buyers. that's been going on for a while. that's ending. >> is that what you mean when you write we're going to up the prices for everybody else? >> it is just supply and demand. the automakers just built too

many cars for years, so they were cheap generally speaking. they have been cutting down on production, streaming down that pipeline and they can build more cars. i think they're not going to. i think automakers want to keep supply tight because what they really need is to get smaller and get their prices up. >> i'm curious what's actually driving people to do this. the ceo of edmond.com saying these car sales are really nothing new because this is the time of year. a lot of people look for deals traditionally, august, july, because you are you're trying to clear out this year's 2009 models to bring in 2010. it is a good time to buy anyway. >> this program may add 750,000 extra cars. it might be a good guess. about half of those sales, would have happened anyway. some people actually put off buying a car for the last couple of months because they knew this program was coming. other people probably would have bought a car in october, november, december, but said i'll do it mao to take advantage of this deal. so those people would have bought a car anyway.

the rest of those probably are people who may not have been -- they might have just said i'll stick with my old car for a while. those people probably were not making a car payment on that car. now they are, even though they got a great deal. some economists worry that's money those people will not be spending on back to school clothes, in stores and restaurants and things like that. this could be a shift of one type of retail spending to another. it will take a few months before we know. >> rick, thank you. still ahead, a friend of michael jackson offering a stunning theory about one of the late star's children. here on msnbc sunday. new blackberry, huh ? yeah. ♪ me too how sick is the web browsing !? all the apps... gps... video. yeah... you didn't get your blackberry with the verizon network, did you ? no. sorry. so it doesn't work here, does it ? no. umm... but... paperweight mode. alright ! blackberry runs better on america's largest 3g network.

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new this morning, the latest gallup poll shows president obama's current approval rating slightly higher. the president's approval rating now at 58%. that number is up after hitting his administration low point of 52% more than a week ago. or is it?

i've got frank newport, editor in chief of the gallup poll joining me right now to let me know that it's different. the number is not 58% any longer. >> 1:00 today it will be 5% on our websi -- 55%. these are three-day rolling averages. looks like it's bouncing around. statistically this isn't huge movement but 55% is where he is right now. >> this is over a week in total. you got 52%, bouncing to 58%, back to 55%. why? >> part is normal. there is a lot going on. voters in -- americans in general and somewhat of a time of flux right now. there's health care. there was good news for obama with the korean journalists being released. maybe he got some credit for that. cash for clunkers. i think that had some positive vibes. people are worried about health care. it all mixes up. but it seems to average about 55%, which is the average for

all u.s. presidents since world war ii. obama right now is dead at average for all presidents. >> where do you see this going if you can -- or can you -- attribute the health care mess. you've got these town hall meetings where people are shouting at each other. it is hard to get the proper information despite efforts of legislators. is that what you think is contributing overall to the bouncing around and up and down? do you see that as perhaps -- perhaps the difficulty bringing the president's ratings down further? >> obama has staked himself publicly on health care. he's coming out and saying this is my initiative, he's clearly involved. it is moving around. i think all august we'll see movement up and down on health care. that's when everybody's back home. long-term implications, we'll wait to see. if there is a bill everybody loves that's passed he gets credit. or if it all falls apart as it

did for bill and hillary clinton, it might get a lot of downward movement as well. we don't know yet. >> safe to say the honeymoon's over? >> he started out high 60s. that's clearly down. all presidents start out high and come back down. he's doing about where bush was in the summer of 2001. he's above clinton, below bush's father, below reagan's. he's kind of in a mixed setting based on other presidents. but the honeymoon's over. some people would say for the bad economy for a president to hold on to a average rating is good. but i think obama is right now in kind of a holding pattern and we'll wait to see what happens. frank newport, thank you so much. at the top of the hour, new pieces of wreckage recovered this morning from the hudson recover after the deadly mid-air collision here on msnbc sunday. [ female announcer ] one size fits all. myth.